Columbia Video Network : Admissions
The degree programs at Harvard Extension School and Columbia Video Network both require you to make a formal application for admission. In the case of the undergraduate/graduate programs at Harvard, the main discriminator is the successful completion of the required three classes with required grades. Because of this, it’s more certain that everyone who applies has been exposed to the coursework and can do the work. GRE scores and recommendations from previous professors are not required.
Since the Columbia Video Network is a part of the Fu School of Engineering at Columbia, their process is a bit different. You must make a formal application that has more in common with the traditional graduate programs. Applications must include current GRE scores along with two recommendations from previous professors. A CV or resume and a personal statement is also required. Transcripts from all undergraduate coursework are also required. Admissions are handled on a rolling basis throughout the year.
One interesting side-effect of this rigorous admissions process is that students who complete the Columbia program probably have a stronger claim to alumni status than Harvard Extension students. It’s less likely that a critic would be able to claim that CVN students weren’t entitled to the same status that on-campus students are.
This is clearly wrong.
This is because CVN advises students who might be thinking of applying to one of the degree programs but are unsure of their ability to get admitted to take one of the classes and try to demonstrate that they can do the work. If this sounds familiar, it’s because this is the default path for Harvard Extension programs.
According to someone at the CVN program, taking a class and earning a good grade is a powerful technique for assuring the admissions committee that you will successfully complete the program. It also seems to cast doubt on the effectiveness of using the SAT/GRE and transcript to prove academic potential.
My information indicates that CVN only has about 20 degree candidates in the Computer Science program at any one time. Most students appear to use CVN to prepare for some project or for admission to another (traditional) graduate program.
But we should take note of the powerful effect that open-enrollment has on selecting good candidates for post-secondary education. Not everyone who tries will make the cut, but enough good candidate do to make the whole effort worthwhile. Those who scoff at the idea should be reminded that earning admission by proving their mettle with actual graded work are also entitled to the same respect that they demand. To offer no less would be an insult to the purpose and mission of higher education.
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HES students receive different degrees and have different notations on their official transcript compared to Harvard College and GSAS students. CVN students receive the exact same degree and transcripts as the regular on-campus students.
Yes. This is one of the strengths of the CVN program. There is less of a division between the distance students and the local ones than at HES.
But lets not make too much of that distinction. My point was to highlight that there is a disconnect between the value that people tend to assign to the notation on the degree and any actual value difference in the education. As I’ve pointed out before, it’s very possible to complete an entire undergraduate program at HES taught by full-time Harvard professors. In many cases, you’re taking the same class as the College student, just videotaped. For a lot of people, the exclusionary effect of the traditional admissions process is what gets the attention and drives the value of the degree.
If we’re still operating on the assumption that a lot of learning occurs by interacting with fellow students, then how does that map to a distance-ed environment where there isn’t a lot of interaction with fellow students?
I am on the fence as well about CVN - albeit for the Certificate in Financial Engineering, with some hopes of grading on to the Professional Degree in Operations Research & Industrial Engineering.
However, having done a traditional BA and MA at Ivy institutions - with the Harvard ALM as a bridge in between - I am just not certain if the career value added is worth it. It strikes me that you are mostly paying for the Columbia name, since the real distribution cost to CVN has to be at best a couple hundred of dollars per course, if that. Alas, despite having the greatest respect for Columbia, its luster fades having three comparably prestigious schools on my resume already. I am also less than sanguine about the courses often being non-contemporaneous to the campus sections, meaning you are never interacting with the faculty member and rather just a PhD student assigned as your online course manager. Reviews on other websites abound with claims of poor grading decisions, language problems in email correspondence, problems articulating formal logic in prose, etc.
However, more to the heart of the post, if I was an employer facing a non-traditional Harvard ALB in NS, I would probably be considerably assuaged by the traditional nature of the Columbia MS in CS. As vain as it sounds, the ALM in IT just sounds horrifically clunky, and raises a lot of back door questions for people not close to the Extension community. My own parents seemed to dismiss the Harvard ALM as an implicit sign I had not done well enough in college to get into “real” graduate school until, alas, I went to “real” graduate school and was near the top of my class. Again, I would wager there are many employers out there who feel the same way - and personally, in interviews I would be out in front by saying you did a traditional MS at Columbia (de-emphasizing the distance component, but not lying about it if it was brought up). Indeed, given how short MS in CS programs are, I would give serious thought to attending one full time since most CS graduate students on a non-doctoral track have considerable family or personal obligations anyhow.
Do keep us apprised of your choice though!
ALM Alum,
I’d love to get some more feedback or pointers to reviews of the CVN course offerings. My general feeling was that the CVN program was relatively under-funded when compared to the arrangement at HES. I developed this opinion after trying to meet with an advisor at CVN.
I do suspect that the Columbia name is what drives the enrollment though. I have to admit that a portion of my interest in the program is the prospect of “validating” the work I did at HES preparing for graduate work in CS. I figure that successfully completing an MS at Columbia will silence any criticism I might draw for going the non-traditional route at Harvard.
I must tell you that a full-time program in CS is simply out of the question. At this stage of my career, the opportunity cost of leaving work is simply too high to warrant that kind of move. Without a clear indicator of increased earning power, the payback for giving up that year working is just to cloudy to make it worthwhile.
I’m looking at possibly undertaking an MBA instead. That presents its own challenges. The same factors that constrain my ability to participate in a full time program might leave me with a set of B-school options that aren’t worth the effort I would have to put in.
I will post my results though.
Richard,
There is definitely an accreditation synergy to be had between the ALB and MS, especially so if from Columbia. This is one issue I have harped on in discussing Harvard ALM options with prospective students – whatever the educational merits, the admissions threshold is simply too low (in most fields) to represent the kind of selection filter that more vaunted employers favor. Given that a lot of ALM students have professional aspirations tied to the degree, this certainly seems relevant.
ALM Alum,
My choice at the moment is between an MBA or the MSCS.
My current concern is how the options available to me for a non-traditional MBA fare when compared against the full-time options. Specifically, is a non-traditional MBA worthwhile, even if it comes from a respectable state school?
I get the feeling that an MBA is mainly about the networking opportunities and that non-traditional programs will suffer in this regard.
If you take classes at CVN, you will know that it is HARD (even harder than on-campus courses). It will be a waste of money if you don’t really put your heart and soul into it… forget of applying if you don’t even understand the prerequisites (materials). Why graduate with a low GPA? At least, it has some challenges that qualify the program to be competitive and deserving its Columbia name.
I’ve taken a class at HES, some classes are hard (like finance classes), but some are TOO easy for Harvard level. So, it is right to distinguish between Harvard Univ. and Extension School.
Yeo,
You might be making an unfair comparison between HES and Columbia CVN.
First of all, not all Harvard College classes are difficult. I believe that there is a mistaken assumption that all Harvard College classes are difficult. That simply isn’t indicated by the evidence. Google “harvard gut classes” and you’ll see what I mean. There are easy and hard classes at Harvard College just like the classes at HES.
Second, HES and the College are both part of Harvard University. It’s wrong to compare Harvard University with HES since one is a component of the other.
Third, Columbia CVN is primarily an engineering program. I don’t know about you, but engineering classes tend to be difficult classes at almost every university they’re offered when compared against humanities or social sciences. The need for strong math skills and a distinct engineering mindset tend to make the competition for grades in engineering classes pretty intense. HES isn’t an engineering program; it’s a liberal arts program. That’s a big difference.
So, I’d ask you to recheck your assumptions and see if your opinion still holds. For what it’s worth, I’m more interested in comparing the course offerings and the handling of non-traditional students than arguing about which program is harder than the other. I think it’s a given that the CVN program will be difficult if only because it’s aiming for a different target than the HES program.
Richard,
I have taken classes at HES.
Trust me, it’s more of a mockery to graduate from HES than Columbia.
People know HES admission is –not– the same as Harvard College. Big companies know HES is not the same as Harvard College. Thus, job seeking will be worse compared to Columbia. Especially when HES Diploma is different than Harvard College. Having “Harvard Extension School” can only do a damage to your reputation.
CVN is different. The diploma is the same (The Fu School of Engineering). You have the option to attend classes on campus. No where on the diploma that indicates “Columbia Video Network”. I must add that the CVN engineering classes online are harder than engineering classes on-campus. I did not compare apples to oranges.
Overall, I think CVN is worth more than HES. CVN is not the same as HES. It’s just another form of professional education targeting for working individuals.
HES for me is the same as community college in terms of admission, classes setup, and prestigiousness level.
“This is because CVN advises students who might be thinking of applying to one of the degree programs but are unsure of their ability to get admitted to take one of the classes and try to demonstrate that they can do the work. If this sounds familiar, it’s because this is the default path for Harvard Extension programs.”
Your statement here is wrong. At CVN, by taking non-degree courses you can demonstrate your work which eventually will help your application process for a degree (but not a guarantee) - there’s a time limit. For HES, you don’t need to demonstrate anything at all to get a degree, you’re accepted automatically even without a GED (like you said). Plus, it is rare for HES students to be admitted to Harvard College. Close to never.
Yeo,
You’re completely wrong about what it takes to get a degree from HES. IN fact, I’m sure you aren’t being entirely truthful about your assertions.
I’m not sure if you’re a troll or not, but you’re posting from an APNIC IP address, so I’m not sure you have the experience you claim with respect to both programs.
Your perception of the relative status between the College and HES is woefully outdated. A significant portion of my coursework was in actual Harvard courses that were offered to both communities via video. The professors warned that the grading standards were the same for both groups. My impression was that there isn’t a significant difference between the HES courses that were only offered to HES students compared to those offered only to College students. I did equally well in both types and worked about as hard.
I also take issue with your statement that “… it’s more of a mockery to graduate from HES than Columbia.”
If your impression of the working world is one in which college transcripts have any significance beyond your first job, you’re either completely immature or ignorant of how the real world works.
When I tell you that not a soul where I work (a Fortune 500 firm) cares about the degree you earned, I’m not exaggerating. It simply doesn’t come up. People care more about what you can do than where you came from. A Harvard diploma might serve as a convenient predictor of future performance, but it’s hardly a mark of certitude in future achievement. There are plenty of graduates of Harvard that only manage a meager performance once the real world gets a hold of them. I’ve worked with plenty of those folks.
And don’t confuse CVN and HES. I’m comparing their approaches to selecting candidates for entry into the program and the orientation of their programs toward distance learning. I’m trying to give people an inside view of how these programs work. I’m not measuring prestige levels.
Comments that denigrate a school where people work hard to learn difficult subjects aren’t welcome here. Both HES and CVN are trying to improve access to degree programs. I welcome their efforts and hope that more schools will follow.
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