As a part time Columbia student who has applied to CVN (still waiting to hear a response) for the MS in CS program, I can offer a couple of views on the application process. It’s worth noting the application requirements are almost identical to Columbia’s on campus MS CS program except that the CVN option only requires 2 recommendation letters (the on campus program requires 3). Otherwise, the application is the same formal package of documents as you would expect.

One key point that sold me on the CVN program is that you can actually take classes on campus. Since I live in Brooklyn, this is great. I applied to CVN rather than the on campus program so that if we move away (which is likely), I can finish whatever I have left by video. To me, sounded like a great deal. The flexibility of on campus, video options and the fact that Columbia’s CS program is a top 20 school.

–Stephen

Well for one, half-price tuition vs either HU/GSAS or CU/CVN, is alone worth the difference. I honestly don’t see why an independent learner can’t get even more, from HES, than any other program out there. I’d grown up in the Boston area and from what I’d seen, the students who did all the independent research projects, not just the classwork, ended up top professional/graduate programs like the Univ of Chicago Law School a/o PhD @ MIT for engineering. Obviously, they did well on the entrance exams, LSAT or GRE, but I don’t think a traditional daytime student is exempt from that either.

I think part of the program is that HES is considered a recreational learning place for Bostonians so a lot of people opt to attend a regular college, drive their families into debt, instead of getting a job, and completing a degree part-time which could really enhance their lives.

You’ve pretty much summed it up. I can say that I’ve never been refused the opportunity to sit in on a class and participate in the discussions when I am in Cambridge. You are correct that it’s at instructor discretion but it seems to be pretty easy to secure that.

It remains to be seen whether maintaining an entire school/program with a specific focus on distance or “professional” learners is the right path or something that is nearly identical to the on-campus traditional graduate program with some minor tweaks to make the program more palatable for that same population.

I haven’t made up my mind in that regard but I’ve been pretty happy with the way HES has treated/supported my efforts.

At Columbia CVN, if one happens to be in NYC, let’s say on a part-time consulting project, and has the free time, one can stop at 1/9 @ 116th/Broadway, sit in on the lectures, and be integrated into the day time crowd. In essence, it’s the same graduate program. The location factor is the only difference; one group is dialed-in and the other, on-site. Likewise, a lot of large companies have a mix of on-site and telecommuting employees. This is not much different from that corporate analogy.

At HES, however, all classes are at night and separated out from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, despite having similar instructors and curricula materials. The exception to this are the special students courses at GSAS but as you probably know, they have to pay full time, day time ala carte tuition for them. So in effect, a visitor to the metro Boston area just can’t stop over and hang out at the GSAS sections and be integrated with the on-site crowd. That person would effectively be treated as an auditor and if allowed to participate in discussions, it’s entirely at the good graces of the instructor. I believe this is a real difference to the matter.

Only 2.5% of the course takers are able to earn HES degrees or diplomas. From this number, it is much more selective than most schools.

You’re completely wrong about what it takes to get a degree from HES. IN fact, I’m sure you aren’t being entirely truthful about your assertions.

I’m not sure if you’re a troll or not, but you’re posting from an APNIC IP address, so I’m not sure you have the experience you claim with respect to both programs.

Your perception of the relative status between the College and HES is woefully outdated. A significant portion of my coursework was in actual Harvard courses that were offered to both communities via video. The professors warned that the grading standards were the same for both groups. My impression was that there isn’t a significant difference between the HES courses that were only offered to HES students compared to those offered only to College students. I did equally well in both types and worked about as hard.

I also take issue with your statement that “… it’s more of a mockery to graduate from HES than Columbia.”

If your impression of the working world is one in which college transcripts have any significance beyond your first job, you’re either completely immature or ignorant of how the real world works.

When I tell you that not a soul where I work (a Fortune 500 firm) cares about the degree you earned, I’m not exaggerating. It simply doesn’t come up. People care more about what you can do than where you came from. A Harvard diploma might serve as a convenient predictor of future performance, but it’s hardly a mark of certitude in future achievement. There are plenty of graduates of Harvard that only manage a meager performance once the real world gets a hold of them. I’ve worked with plenty of those folks.

And don’t confuse CVN and HES. I’m comparing their approaches to selecting candidates for entry into the program and the orientation of their programs toward distance learning. I’m trying to give people an inside view of how these programs work. I’m not measuring prestige levels.

Comments that denigrate a school where people work hard to learn difficult subjects aren’t welcome here. Both HES and CVN are trying to improve access to degree programs. I welcome their efforts and hope that more schools will follow.

Your statement here is wrong. At CVN, by taking non-degree courses you can demonstrate your work which eventually will help your application process for a degree (but not a guarantee) – there’s a time limit. For HES, you don’t need to demonstrate anything at all to get a degree, you’re accepted automatically even without a GED (like you said). Plus, it is rare for HES students to be admitted to Harvard College. Close to never.

I have taken classes at HES.

Trust me, it’s more of a mockery to graduate from HES than Columbia.

People know HES admission is –not– the same as Harvard College. Big companies know HES is not the same as Harvard College. Thus, job seeking will be worse compared to Columbia. Especially when HES Diploma is different than Harvard College. Having “Harvard Extension School” can only do a damage to your reputation.

CVN is different. The diploma is the same (The Fu School of Engineering). You have the option to attend classes on campus. No where on the diploma that indicates “Columbia Video Network”. I must add that the CVN engineering classes online are harder than engineering classes on-campus. I did not compare apples to oranges.

Overall, I think CVN is worth more than HES. CVN is not the same as HES. It’s just another form of professional education targeting for working individuals.
HES for me is the same as community college in terms of admission, classes setup, and prestigiousness level.

You might be making an unfair comparison between HES and Columbia CVN.

First of all, not all Harvard College classes are difficult. I believe that there is a mistaken assumption that all Harvard College classes are difficult. That simply isn’t indicated by the evidence. Google “harvard gut classes” and you’ll see what I mean. There are easy and hard classes at Harvard College just like the classes at HES.

Second, HES and the College are both part of Harvard University. It’s wrong to compare Harvard University with HES since one is a component of the other.

Third, Columbia CVN is primarily an engineering program. I don’t know about you, but engineering classes tend to be difficult classes at almost every university they’re offered when compared against humanities or social sciences. The need for strong math skills and a distinct engineering mindset tend to make the competition for grades in engineering classes pretty intense. HES isn’t an engineering program; it’s a liberal arts program. That’s a big difference.

So, I’d ask you to recheck your assumptions and see if your opinion still holds. For what it’s worth, I’m more interested in comparing the course offerings and the handling of non-traditional students than arguing about which program is harder than the other. I think it’s a given that the CVN program will be difficult if only because it’s aiming for a different target than the HES program.

I’ve taken a class at HES, some classes are hard (like finance classes), but some are TOO easy for Harvard level. So, it is right to distinguish between Harvard Univ. and Extension School.

My choice at the moment is between an MBA or the MSCS.

My current concern is how the options available to me for a non-traditional MBA fare when compared against the full-time options. Specifically, is a non-traditional MBA worthwhile, even if it comes from a respectable state school?

I get the feeling that an MBA is mainly about the networking opportunities and that non-traditional programs will suffer in this regard.

There is definitely an accreditation synergy to be had between the ALB and MS, especially so if from Columbia. This is one issue I have harped on in discussing Harvard ALM options with prospective students – whatever the educational merits, the admissions threshold is simply too low (in most fields) to represent the kind of selection filter that more vaunted employers favor. Given that a lot of ALM students have professional aspirations tied to the degree, this certainly seems relevant.

I’d love to get some more feedback or pointers to reviews of the CVN course offerings. My general feeling was that the CVN program was relatively under-funded when compared to the arrangement at HES. I developed this opinion after trying to meet with an advisor at CVN.

I do suspect that the Columbia name is what drives the enrollment though. I have to admit that a portion of my interest in the program is the prospect of “validating” the work I did at HES preparing for graduate work in CS. I figure that successfully completing an MS at Columbia will silence any criticism I might draw for going the non-traditional route at Harvard.

I must tell you that a full-time program in CS is simply out of the question. At this stage of my career, the opportunity cost of leaving work is simply too high to warrant that kind of move. Without a clear indicator of increased earning power, the payback for giving up that year working is just to cloudy to make it worthwhile.

I’m looking at possibly undertaking an MBA instead. That presents its own challenges. The same factors that constrain my ability to participate in a full time program might leave me with a set of B-school options that aren’t worth the effort I would have to put in.

I will post my results though.