I bet that a lot of you think I chose it because it’s Harvard.
You’re only partly right. The name did have an effect on my choice but only tangentially so.
I was intrigued by the idea that a school like Harvard would offer distance education courses for credit and even more suprised that they offered degrees.
But it was much more important for me to find a good fit between what I was trying to achieve and what the school offered. To be successful, I needed to join a school that was targeting students who were like me: working adults with full schedules. For me, Harvard Extension was that school.
I’m often asked why I didn’t choose to attend a local school instead. The best answer that I can give is that they didn’t have a functioning and robust program for distance education combined with a rigorous academic level. Distance education is such a huge factor for me that I’m now biased against any school that hasn’t embraced this method of learning. It saves so much time and solve so many problems for people that I can’t imagine why more schools aren’t taking advantage or expanding their programs.
It isn’t hard to find distance-ed programs. There are plenty of them that are out there. The real challenge is finding a school that doesn’t treat them like an afterthought. That’s why it’s important to focus on the program itself rather than the name on the diploma. In the end, nobody will care where you went to school. They are much more interested in who you turned out to be.
I saw this article in the paper. The choice quote:
When I was 20 an older friend predicted, “Ten years from now, no one will care where you went to school. In fact, no one will ask.” Ridiculous, I thought. She turned out to be right. Where you live between the ages of 18 and 22 won’t define who you are. One day soon, the proud new college decal on your family car’s rear window will start looking a little uncool.
The author is correct. It’s not really that important where you went to school. It’s more important that the school is the right one for you. For me, that happened to be Harvard. Your ideal school match might be different. Don’t get too worked up about it.
Of course, when you’re on campus and looking at all those historic buildings, it’s hard not to allow yourself to believe the fantasy of it all. Just don’t let yourself be fooled. A degree from Harvard won’t change who you are. I have to keep reminding myself of that too.
Now that I’m looking for a graduate program to continue my studies, I’m faced with the same sorts of questions: What place is going to be the best fit for me? Where will I feel most comfortable? Where do I think I’ll be able to learn the most?
I’m torn between continuing on at Harvard Extension and their ALM in IT program and pursuing the Columbia MS in Computer Science option. On paper, the Columbia program is very impressive. I just couldn’t help feeling like the place was just a little bit too cold for me.
I might just be nervous about changing schools at some point. I just felt like I should put it out there so that people don’t think that the choice of where to go to school is always so automatic (i.e. pick the best name). Choosing where you will spend the next several years in intense study isn’t a decision to be taken lightly. Spend some time on it and try to choose wisely. Don’t let anyone else’s opinion drive yours. Make your own choice.
After all, it’s your life.
Hey Everyone,
I have completed about 65 units of undergrad course work and am considering transferring to the HES program. If I am able to transfer all 64 units allowed…
– How quickly can I complete the ALB degree as a full time student also attending summer school ?
– Is concurrent enrollment in the HCP program possible to complete both programs simultaneously?
…all responses are truly appreciated!!!
You can register for up to 16 credits per semester without petitioning for an overload. That would be a full-time student course load. If you do that, you can finish those last 64 hours in 2 years, faster if you also attend summer school.
I don’t know much about the HCP program. Theoretically, you can do both since being in the HCP entails taking all Extension coursework.
does anyone know what is the difference between the certificate program in publishing vs the masters in journalism. I want to write novels. I don’t feel like i can just go at it blindly.
Also, I am not sure of the difference. Please advise…I do already hold a Masters in Public Health and sort of don’t want two degrees (although people do it all the time)
Hi,
I see many people who are not sure whether HES is a quality school or not. They wonder whether their diploma will worth anything or not… That’s why I wanted to share my profile with you to show what kind of people attend HES and how this should change your view of the school.
I am a Master’s in Management candidate in HES. At the moment I work in Europe as an IT consultant and probably I am one of the very few experts in my field in the whole world. That’s why I have been contracting for almost a decade for some tech companies who are among the biggest in the world. My monthly salary reached $35000 sometimes. Now notice, this is perhaps three times more than what a Harvard Business School graduate’s medium salary is! And I have only a
Bachelor’s degree from and unknown school in Europe… Why am I telling you this?
First of all, prestige of your diploma is not the most important thing. As you can see what matters is your expertise, your experience. I remember
turning down an Oxford graduate for a position that I had to recruit for. Because he didn’t have the experience. That’s why I did not even call him for an
interview… Don’t forget; companies are not living in fantasy worlds like you do. They have no time and no enough money to waste for waiting guys with fancy diplomas! They want people who has the experience. So, your school is the first step in your endeavor to find a good job. The second step is to
specialize and worth something. People who are recruiting, most of the time, have no clue about what school is teaching what and what is its ranking.
What they have is your CV. So, if you think you will cheat someone to give you an easy fortune just because you are a graduate of school X, you are deeply mistaken.
Second, as soon as I found about HES, I didn’t even look at other schools. Because it provides the most ideal education. 1-It doesn’t ask you to take some stupid irrelevant test. It says; “ok go ahead and take a few courses. If you are good then you study.”. This makes HES a good school for me. Not a low quality school. 2- It offers countless number of courses. This is excellent since as an experienced professional, I know which courses I need and I want to be able to choose them. I don’t want to waste money and time on useless courses which are only designed to make money. 3- It is cheap. It is not overvalued!
It gives an education which adds value to me not steals from me. It was hard for me to make what I have now and I don’t want to lose it for an overvalued “commercial” diploma. If you want to go to HBS, you will need to spend around $150000 in two years. Add to that the lost salary if you don’t work, it becomes a fortune! Now that is silly for me. Simple as that… Sometimes we take the same courses with Harvard College students. But they pay probably more than $5000 for that course although a HES student pays $1700. Now is that being stupid? 4-It allows me to work and is very flexible. You will not find any MBA that is this flexible. I can be on the other part of the world and study. That’s what I need since I am a contractor. 5- It is Harvard. Some of my instructors will be from Harvard Business School some from Kennedy School of Government some from Harvard College some from Harvard Medical School some from Harvard Law School… As you can see you experience the whole Harvard. Not just one school. Also don’t forget, Harvard is not the only school in US. There are other good schools and good professors too. You will have a chance to experience some of USA’s best schools and instructors through Harvard’s filter. I can mention schools like MIT’s Sloan Management School since I saw a professor giving course in HES. 6- I will be a Harvard graduate! Simple as that…
So, given all the points above, if someone told me that I am admitted to HBS, I would say: “no thanks” unless it was one year, about the same price range as HES and as flexible. As you can see some of us are choosing the schools based on what we need not based on its prestige.
What I am saying is, too many people are concerned about the prestige of their diploma then its content, its quality. I think that’s because most of you have never worked. You have no clue about business environment. You have no clue that most of what you will learn will worth nothing when you start working.
You expect that companies will keep on paying you their hard earned currencies just because you are a graduate of the school X! I can tell you, that won’t happen! You have to have the talent, the skills, the intelligence.
So, if you are concerned about HES’ prestige then perhaps you should go somewhere else… Don’t take HES lightly. There are very few graduates of it.
I am sure many who are asking whether HES is good for them or not are forgetting the fact that they might not have the capacity to graduate.
Good luck to everyone! No matter what school you will choose, it will be a very difficult year economically. Perhaps the same next a few years. So make sure
you save your money
Hi Richard, my name is Simone. I must say that it is a quite humble and sometimes embarassing story but I goofed off MAJOR in high school, my transcripts do not in anyway express my academic potential because I was not taking high school seriously, and I never took the SAT’s. Circumstantially, I dropped out of high school in 11th grade and proceeded to work fulltime and support myself and my household. I just received my GED and I was wondering what my chances look like as far as getting into HES ? I am 19 years old and I have yet to start my CORE classes as a freshman. I do however, plan to receive my AA at BMCC. Is it possible for me to finish my education at HES after I receive my AA? My desired concentration is Public Administration and International Affairs (I see myself working with the United Nations) doing what exactly I am not sure. An Ambassador perhaps ? Please respond in e-mail.
Thanks in advance,
Simone
Thanks for a great blog. It’s been a big help in my decision making process.
My question is, what is the cheapest most cost effective way to meet the residency requirement?
I live in the Wash. D.C. area so I can’t commute.
Do the residency over two summers. You can take two classes each summer over 8 weeks. This will meet the residency requirement.
Another option is to commute once per week and stay overnight. You can take two classes on the same evening and do this over two semesters. It’s definitely doable from the DC area.
Does anyone have information on trends in e-learning vs. instructor based education? Price/cost advantage of e-learning?
Thank you!
Julie
Long time reader, first time poster. I’ve been a computer programmer for several years, a senior software architect, and other accomplishments. All with out a collegiate experience to speak of. I took off for 4 years and ran around the rain forests of the world, now I’m ready to combine both experiences. I have fell in love with Cambridge and believe it will foster the demands of my future goals. MIT seems to frown on non-traditional undergrads, how would one rate the IT/Computer Science focus of the ALB program?
Regards,
Andrew
I am writing from first hand experiences of both Harvard College and the Extension School. Regarding the question of whether the HES degree and College degree are regarded similarly in the world: I think you would do a better service to answer this question honestly and without demeaning the College and its student body. The honest answer is no; an HES degree is not and should not be regarded similarly to the College degree (or graduate and professional school degrees). They are different schools with fundamentally different missions and standards. And not simply because of the “pedigree” and “blue bloods” of the College or its social scene – because of the highly competitive nature of admissions, the amazing drive and talents of the student body, and the demanding rigor of Harvard College classes. Your comments about traditional College students are openly prejudiced and express a stereotyped view what the school was, not what it is. Diversity across all vectors is increasing, needs-blind admission policies are well established, and the school’s financial aid packages really do ensure that if you can earn your place, you can afford to attend. You can celebrate the richness and well-respected reputation of HES without insulting the College. Can’t you?
Hi Penny,
I think you would be hard pressed to argue that the attitude of the College students toward Extension students is any more generous than the one I offered in my article.
Extension students are regularly chided for claiming a Harvard affiliation of any degree and regularly dismissed by College students as a student population unworthy of any standing in academic setting.
Your own comments seem to underlie this point:
What standards are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the standards of the Extension school are lower than those at the College? I’ve taken classes in both schools and my own estimation of the level of work and difficulty between the courses in the two programs is pretty close to even.
Furthermore, my own experience as a student in contact with College students and FAS students revealed a surprising level of ignorance about our school and its mission. I’ve had to correct the Crimson on a number of inaccuracies in their articles that fed the impression that the bulk of students who attend and complete the Extension program are simply attracted by the Harvard brand or are otherwise attempting to usurp some of the accolades that have accumulated to Harvard alum as a whole. This is unfair.
There have been some surprises. Some of the students that serve as TFs for classes that are offered to College and Extension students seem more than willing to accommodate the range of experiences and learning styles of students in the Extension program. Few, if any, judge the HES students as limited or lesser in any way than College students.
But the larger population of College students remain blissfully unaware of the merits of the Extension program at best and at worst suspicious or dismissive of any student who didn’t pass some hazy standard of “acceptance” in the College claiming any title to alumni status.
There are talented and driven students at the College. There is no doubt about that. My only criticism of the College is driven by the prevailing belief that they are somehow more talented and driven that students at HES. I don’t believe that this is the case and I think it’s an assumption that belittles both the Extension program as well as the supposed depth of perception that is supposed to underlie the renewed emphasis on diversity at the University.
Penny I think that post was quite unnecessary!?!
Richard has done a great job in responding to your post!
I did my undergraduate degree in the University of Cambridge, England (which I am sure you know is rated the second best school in the world right after Harvard, and the best in the UK), and I am now about to complete my masters degree there. I believe it would be quite shallow of you to look at the people who attend HES as ‘less qualified’ than the people in Havard Business School or otherwise (refering to their admission standards or whatever you were refering to) as if I were to apply to HES and get in (which is a great option), it would be very very wrong of you to assume that you are in somewhat of a different league than I am!!! I believe your comment above could have been phrased in a more respectful manner as from my point of view, your comment has a tone of arrogancy to it! People who think like that need to change their mind set and begin to give all people who are even willing to get an education and better themselves the respect they desrve!
Kids will be kids! How can one expect a person that has probably never held a real, full-time job or raised a family to understand or appreciate the inherent challenges that many non-traditional students face on a daily basis? While “their” academic performance throughout grade school is undoubtedly commendable, most of them are simply unable to internalize the sacrifices that non-traditional students make in pursuing their education. I assure you that most of them, upon graduation, will experience a distinct wakeup call that will adjust their attitude and erode much of their sense of entitlement and self absorption, especially in these economic times. It’s saddening that their world revolves around an obsession with exclusionary methods of evaluation, that many of them cannot find value in something unless a grade is placed on it. What’s more, their attitudes serve as an example of how intolerance often leads to discrimination and prejudice. Luckily, MOST Harvard College students do not possess such elitist and outdated views on continuing education. I have spoken to several Harvard College students and graduates and most seem to understand the purpose of the HES degree programs very well. Yes, the College provides a more intensive program as it is a FULL-TIME program and thus should be intensive if all a student is expected to do is study and attend class. With that, HES is closely modeled after the Harvard College curriculum and an A.B. graduate and an A.L.B. graduate will have each received an outstanding classical liberal arts education. We are living in a truly fascinating moment in history where the walls and barriers of old are crumbling right before our very eyes. The attitude that a world-class education should be reserved for a chosen few will, in time, erode right along with the rest of the unjust barriers to access. I applaud HES’s admissions policy that is based on the premise that if one can do honors level work at Harvard, then one deserves to study at Harvard. Many of the College students simply believe that a Harvard bachelor’s degree should be reserved for them and them alone. According to the 2006-2007 Harvard factbook, the College conferred 1,629 A.B. degrees while the Extension School conferred a mere 108 A.L.B. degrees. Those 108 individuals made sacrifices that the 1,629 were fortunate enough to have avoided. When you combine character, age, work experience, maturity and academic ability, you arrive at a determinant of success that far exceeds any 1600 SAT score. While some College students may have their issues with HES, the university’s administration seems to believe that HES degrees are indeed Harvard degrees. I trust that the President & Fellows of Harvard College would NEVER place the name of such a preeminent institution on a degree that they somehow felt was inferior or not in keeping with Harvard’s standards of excellence in all areas, including continuing education. Apparently, however, there are some teenagers in the College that feel they know what’s best for Harvard. Food for thought. By the way, the Harvard Crimson is nothing but a bunch of egotistical, bratty kids “playing” newspaper. Take their misguided comments on HES as simply entertaining satire as the majority of their comments on HES are self-serving and void of fact.
I am considering the extension program very seriously and am so grateful for this blog. I am in my 30′s, and have a BFA from NYU.
I have long wanted to return to school but frankly the not until I learned of the extension program did I consider I could find such an amazing program/and access to a world class education while working full-time.
Truth be told, I have always felt I sort of blew it with my initial degree. I graduated with excellent grades, and enjoyed the experience but I am now focused on an entirely different track. I am uncertain if the masters is the best step for me to take and I am curious how many of the HES students are pursuing a second bachelors? I should add that my goal is now continue into a traditional masters program. I worry my BFA which is in creative writing may not be the best foundation for most graduate professional programs and and unsure if the best step is essentially a second bachelors or if the ALM would bridge the gap and help strengthen my application for Ivy level professional degree masters programs. Any advice you have on ALM versus ALB is much appreciated for someone with a BFA.
I am considering the extension program very seriously and am so grateful for this blog. I am in my 30′s, and have a BFA from NYU.
I have long wanted to return to school but frankly the not until I learned of the extension program did I consider I could find such an amazing program/and access to a world class education while working full-time.
Truth be told, I have always felt I sort of blew it with my initial degree. I graduated with excellent grades, and enjoyed the experience but I am now focused on an entirely different track. I am uncertain if the masters is the best step for me to take and I am curious how many of the HES students are pursuing a second bachelors? I should add that my goal is now continue into a traditional masters program. I worry my BFA which is in creative writing may not be the best foundation for most graduate professional programs and and unsure if the best step is essentially a second bachelors or if the ALM would bridge the gap and help strengthen my application for Ivy level professional degree masters programs. Any advice you have on ALM versus ALB is much appreciated for someone with a BFA.
If you already have a bachelor’s degree, HES will not allow you to register to earn a second one. Your only choice is to go for one of the ALM programs.
That said, you might find that one of the Liberal Arts ALM programs is right up your alley. If you need some refresher coursework to get yourself ready for a different program, HES offers all of those courses in a relatively easy format. One of the principal uses of HES is to get some backup coursework to prepare for a graduate program somewhere else.
Penny,
I am sure that you worked very hard to get into Harvard. None of us knows anything about your life or what you went through to gain admittance and earn your diploma, and noone is disputing that. You, also, know nothing about us or where we come from.
I’m glad that whatever your upbringing, you knew that Harvard was an option. I didn’t. Perhaps I should have had some magical ability to rise above my status and see things that noone else around me saw. I did not.
There are only a couple of college graduates in my entire extended family. I live on the other side of the country, almost as far from Boston as you can get and still be on the continent. Harvard was a name occasionally heard in movies and was as far from reality as my walking on the moon.
I didn’t even understand what a college education meant at that stage in my life. I was a dirt poor, ignorant, trailer park white girl with no college ambition…and who was there to model anything else to me?
Many years have gone by and I am now in my 30′s. I have always been very self educated. I am a hard worker. I have experience in the world in many different jobs and capacities. I am not a victim of my circumstances. I want to reach out and grab life by the horns. I have been thinking about going back to school for a long time and I know I bring all of my experience and maturity to the table. I was ecstatic to learn about this program. I dislike community college because I have not found it challenging enough.
Do you mean to tell me that because you came from a better situation than I did, because someone impressed to you the importance of higher learning at a tender age, and because you attended your classes during the daytime rather than at night (because you were working full time all day long), that you are somehow better than me?
I mean, essentially, that is what you are implying, is it not?
I am GRATEFUL that an honored institution such as Harvard would care enough about education to offer such a program. It is not less. It is different. It is immature and snobbish to suggest otherwise.
As for the people on this blog who have offered their experience and insight with HES, I greatly appreciate you. You all seem well rounded and eloquent and I would be proud…I would be honored to be counted among your number.
Thanks and be blessed.
The HES is a portal by which new talent can enter Harvard! Being more mature, well read, and stable in ones academic interests, gives the HES an edge. Nobody should allow ageism-which is discrimination!-to influence his/her decision to pursue higher learning. If your goal is to attend Harvard, then the HES is a good means for doing so!
Hello…Am considering doing my undregraduate degree at HES.I intend to go onto medical school.WOuld I be able to complete my degree in 2 years and whats the chances of me getting into havard medical school or another Ivy League.I did a 1 year college course in London which is equivalent to 3 A levels
Josh,
Whether or not you can complete your degree at HES is completely up to you. It’s not out of the question but it would be hard to get it done in that amount of time.
As for medical school, I’m no expert. I can tell you that it is exceptionally difficult to get into ANY of the Ivy League medical schools.
OK thanks Rich!!!So what can I do to make my self more attractive to get into onr of the Ivy league med school.Should I do a master after or should I double major at the extension school,or get special student status and take courses at havard college ,and then transfer to havard college or John hopkin to complete my undergraduate degree there????/Please somebody share some light here……Rich!!!!help me
Josh,
I don’t have any easy answers to you. You probably guessed that you need to do very well in whatever undergraduate school you end up attending. I’m not sure what else you would need for medical school. HES has a program called the Health Careers Program. You should probably take a look at that. If you do well in that program, they will help you get into a medical school.
Hello,
I’ve been reading all of the responses above, and I want to thank those both who answered and asked the questions because it helped me learn a lot more about HES.
Nevertheless, I am transferring from another University. Which is actually a very well respected University. I am a bit shy to admit that this is actually my second time transferring, I completed about 2 and-a-half years there, and decided to transfer for a mixture of reasons related to financial, distance, lack of respect from the university.
I double majored in Philosophy and Political Science, so most of my classes are in the Liberal Arts sector. I completed roughly about 75 credits at this institution, how much of it do you think will be transfered to HES? Because I am in a way traumatized, so to speak, for needing to transfer again, and I just want to get school over with and, hopefully, move onto Law School.
My second question, is there such thing as a major at HES or anything of the like?
Thanks in advance,
Sam
Hi. I just recently discovered this program at Harvard and have been reading all of the comments. I have a BS in Computer Science from a small private college in NC (Campbell U) and an MS from George Washington U in DC. I worked full-time while getting my MS and finisehd with a 3.5. However, my undergrad career was a bit of a mess. I was expelled due to poor grades from my first school and ended up finishing with just over a 2.0 from Campbell. I would like to attend law school, but they of course put a lot of emphasis on undergrad GPA. I was looking at this program to wipe the slate clean, so to speak, and eventually apply to law school. Does anyone have any advice for me…is this a good idea?
Thanks in advance.
KA,
Don’t worry about your undergrad GPA. They are much more concerned about your RECENT academic work and your LSAT score.
I any case, Harvard will not let you get another undergrad degree from them if you already have one. What you CAN do is take a few courses that show you are a serious student.
BTW, how did you like GWU for Computer Science?
Hi Richard,
Just stumbled on this blog and its practically made my day! Just like a previous post I’m also an IT contractor based in the UK and doing well in my career – last year earned equivalent of US$200,000 and been thinking o f doing an MBA to broaden my understanding of business, but I cant get into any of the top schools because my undergraduate GPA is very low – 2.0. Would a HES course/ degree help my applications to these schools? What courses would you suggest I take. will the 3 pre-requisite be enough or a full ALM?
Also can you put me in contact with ‘General’ – also from Europe, commented on your blog.
Thanks.
Hi UK Guy,
I’m not sure if an ALM course will help with your applications to the other schools. If you do well, it might do something to mitigate the idea that you aren’t a serious student/candidate.
Richard,
Thank you for your informative posts, they served to educate me much about the process. Last semester, I took a class at HES but was unable to finish. My Aunt suffered complications from Diabetes and almost lost her leg. I’ve been taking care of her all, and i want to try again, but i want to know if messing up that class has ruined my academic record and ruined any chances of working hard again towads my degree.
I don’t think you’re a lost cause Dorian.
Just speak to the advisers and get yourself set up to try again. You’ll be fine.
Comments to KK/etc..
I am an HES student; and yes I like the rigour and the drive of the students in HES/College. I agree with KK. I agree that the students there are arrogant. Yes I do. Because they have the right to be arrogant /and elitists, because after all they are the BEST in the world ( right KK? You happen to be studying in the second best school, so therefore we can’t blame the writer from the college to treat you differently, if she wants to). Also please don’t compare UK to US schools, because for me, UK schools are far inferior and old. They failed to revolutionize and change with times. So for the writer from Harvard to demean HES was her right, just like we have the right to say our piece calling her arrogant.
Just lets accept the fact that the college and other grad schools at Harvard are more rigorous, based on the selection criteria they set compared to HES.
SAT, GMAT and countless recommendations, and of course costs, that students have to shoulder to get into these programs.
Who cares if HES is inferior to the other College/Programs, —it is not inferior to the other schools and universities.
P.S> UK guy with 2.0 GPA. I think HES will not admit you ( please check the admission requirement regarding undergraduate courses–you need to have an honours degree – if earned from the UK- besides why go back to school if you earn that much a year – a question to you too general?).
I came across this blog as someone who is interested in taking a class or two in Environmental Management at the Extension School. I went to Harvard College and Harvard Law School and am an associate at a law firm that does a fair amount of toxic tort litigation, thus my interest in the aforementioned subject area.
A few things: Harvard Extension School is a fantastic option for people who are interested in learning for the sake of learning, completing an unfinished degree, or picking up a skill as a means of professional development. Education is what you make of it, and there are many fine professors that are instructors there. That said, the experience at Harvard Extension School is nothing like the experience at Harvard College. The latter is arguably the most competitive school in the country, the former has open enrollment (the previous commentator who stated that you’re competing with students at the College for grades, or anything else is incorrect). The professors that teach at Harvard Extension School are typically not FAS professors, though there are exceptions. In any case, they’re not the professors people come to Harvard to work with (and this is an important distinction – undergrads at the College are choosing to attend Harvard to work with Michael Sandel or Stanley Hoffman in the Gov. Department – this is not going to be a possibility in the Extension School). And, unless you’re being deceptive to employers, a degree from Harvard Extension School will not open any doors a degree from Suffolk wouldn’t. It’s the students at Harvard College McKinsey’s interested in hiring, never the students from the Extension School. (as an additional piece of advise – all of these questions about whether the diploma says “Extension” seem like you have an intent to misrepresent yourself, and frankly, it’s what give extension students a largely undeserved “bad” reputation.
Don’t view it as some “back door” into Harvard and, for the sake of not embarrassing yourself, don’t every tell anyone who went to the College that your experience is at all as rigorous, challenging, etc. Regardless of what you purport, it’s not viewed as an equivalent (translation: as good a) school by anyone in the know. I’m don’t think I’m unfairly knocking the school – I think well enough of it to be taking a course there next fall. That said, go in with open eyes.
Aaron,
Congrats on HC and HLS. I’m happy you are looking at HES for some environmental management classes.
But you’re wrong on a lot of things:
1. Recently, you COULD work with Michael Sandel at HES. A few years ago, he offered his course “Justice” through HES at the same time that he offered it at HC. I myself took a class with Jeffry Frieden on International Political Economy. I asked him pointedly if there was any difference between the grading standards for the HES students and those for the HC students. He said there was NONE.
2. A fair number of FAS professors offer their classes through HES. This is particularly true of the Computer Science department where Michael Mitzenmacher has been offering his classes through HES for quite some time. Furthermore, his program might actually be more difficult than it is for HC students, since they typically have to complete the work without the benefit of peers to help them complete assignments outside of class.
3. I would hesitate to say that grading at HC represents any sort of grade competition. Until VERY recently, grade inflation was a terrible problem at HC. Very very few people fail out of Harvard College and there have been numerous instances of students who have committed blatant acts of plagiarism but are allowed to remain at the College. I dispute the notion that HC students do not compete with HES students for grades. There is plenty of evidence that the yardstick to measure student performance is the same for HES students as it is for HC students.
4. Stating that HES professors are somewhat lesser than HC professors is a bit of a shot at the excellent teaching staff at HES. Most of the classes offered at HES are from bona fide Harvard instructors. Some of them come from the College, but others come from the Business School, others from the Law Program. I took a class from Allan Ryan, who:
That’s not exactly a pedigree to be ashamed of, and even if he doesn’t teach a course at HLS, he’s not a bad person to learn Intellectual Property from.
For what it’s worth, I attended another school in the (original) Ivy League and between the classes there and those at HC/HES, the classes there were MUCH harder.
So congrats on getting into Harvard, but I’m far from convinced that the educational experience is as demanding or as challenging as you suggest. I’ve taken the classes and earned the grades. The hardest thing about HC is getting in. Once you do that, it’s pretty easy to finish the program.
Aaron
I have a double masters degree from other universities, finished at the top of my class from my undergrad degree. I am concurrently doing a PhD at the premier western university in another part of the globe while studying at HES. I could have easily picked any ivy league universities to complement my research, but I chose HES for the same reasons. I am in the position to say that the programs at HES are rigorous ( I took computer science subjects, and I guess there could be no more rigorous- or painstaking- than professors in the courses giving long and complicated assignments every week, than writing essays, reports or presenting in a class to impress your professors in other courses).
In other words, my time at HES did not only stretch my time but also my intellect ( without embarrassing myself), but I would assume that you were referring to social sciences/law or environment etc., where writing essays and a simple gift of gab, plus the command of the first language is just a prerequisite to get through and get the right marks from either HC/HLS or HES.
For Richard,
I have to admit that the programs at HC are as demanding and as challenging as Aaron suggest ( especially on most of its programmes). HC has been producing a list of breakthroughs in its many areas, ( I am referring to Nobel winners etc.).
Also, you are incorrect when you said it is pretty easy to finish the program once you get in to HC( please refer to the statistics of drop outs from HC), count the in the inclusion- the founder of MSoft and Facebook, etc. ( I am not implying that they dropped out because they were not good, they did simply because they had to — they could not balance work and study at HC, for obvious reasons. They could have gone to HES and attend classes via distance.
So let’s stop the comparison and competition between HC and HES. Both are under Harvard. Its like brother and cousins, with no major difference, who knows in the future HES will produce nobel winners, or winners of literary prizes.
It would have been nice if we deal so called comparison with some maturity.
by the way Richard, what program did you complete at HES?
Your statement ” For what it’s worth, I attended another school in the (original) Ivy League and between the classes there and those at HC/HES, the classes there were MUCH harder. ”
implies that HES is no better than the previous Ivy league you attended.
Wasn’t it a disservice to HC/HES? Did it mean that you finish your degree at HES because its much easier ? Also have you studied at HC to make such a calculated comparison?
P.S> I have the impression that most of the people in this blog are so obsessed with earning a degree at Harvard that they simply forget what education is all about.
Richard,
1/2. My point about WORKING with professors was not that one had or did not have the ability to take their courses – rather, it was about serving as a research assistant to Prof. Sandel, or working in the lab of a Doug Melton – opportunities that are available to undergraduates at the College. Most of the “Harvard-affiliated” instructors are lecturers or preceptors – individuals that do not typically teach courses at the College, but may lead a reading group / not-for-credit seminar for undergraduates that focus on their interests. That said, there are exceptions – in looking through the course catalog, I noticed Prof. Fash teaches a course dealing with meso-America. He really is fantastic and I’m glad that non-traditional students have an opportunity to have him as a teacher (which he is in the truest sense of the word).
3. I’d like to avoid commenting excessively on the grading issue, as I have yet to take an Extension School course, but to the uninitiated, I think it’s ridiculous to assert that the answer to “which is more challenging, Harvard College, or Harvard Extension School,” is they’re basically the same. Think about it: an A-/B+ average from Harvard College makes you competitive at Harvard Law School (my class at HLS had 93 graduates in it from the College). If the Extension School was truly as academically challenging, you would expect that there would be at least 1 A.L.B. graduate represented at HLS (I assume SOMEONE is finishing with a mostly A-/B+ GPA). If no one from the Extension School is getting into HLS no matter how well (s)he does there, and literally 200 or so Harvard College kids are getting in with A-/B+ GPAs every year, doesn’t that indicate that HARVARD draws a real distinction with regard to academic quality / competitiveness / what the grades actually mean? I understand the urge to be proud of where you went to school, but don’t be such a fierce defender that you say things that, despite what Prof. Frieden has told you (I had him for 97b), don’t pass the common sense test, at least when applied beyond his course.
4. I have no doubt that from a teaching standpoint, the Extension School probably has, on average, a better faculty. FAS doesn’t hire professors because of they’re ability to command a classroom (many of my professors were horrible – one, the worst instructor that I’ve ever had, going all the way back to middle school). It’s my hope that while the Extension School may not have the most prolific publishers on the planet providing instruction, they’re at least trying to get people to teach that are truly passionate about the material and are good at the “teaching” component of their job.
As a final note, I’m not against the Extension School, at all. I have a very good friend from high school who started off at UMass-Boston and complete her undergraduate degree there. My only point in making any comment is that people should know what they’re getting into before investing a lot of money in the program (i.e. there was a New York Times article a while back in which young people straight out of high school were turning down traditional college experiences at legitimate schools to go the Extension School. This is not smart – they’ve been fooled by Harvard’s marketing department into thinking they’re getting something that is comparable to the Harvard College experience, when (looking at any employment statistics), this is clearly not the case, and is not viewed as such, even by the University (HLS matriculation rates).
Aaron,
1/2. You should take a long hard look at the “Special Student” option available to HES degree students. It’s challenging to make the cut, but it probably goes the farthest towards providing the opportunity a HES student seeks to work alongside some notable names. My own investigation of the option led me away from it since I found that it would be too great a burden on me to travel from DC to Cambridge to attend the classes. Secondly, MOST of the professors who are not Harvard-affiliated are instead professors at other schools in the area. One class I regret not having the opportunity to attend is taught by a professor from the Naval War College. There are many examples like this.
3. My own empirical back-of-the-napkin analysis indicates that there is a considerable overlap between the grading standards and distribution when we compare HES and HC students in the same class. Don’t take my word for it, go ask the professors or read what they’ve written. Their own notes indicate that they see a greater number of HES students who can’t do the work but that otherwise they see students who perform at par with the HC students. Furthermore, the percieved lack of HES students at HLS might be just your own experience. There is at least one person who graduated from HLS cum laude after finishing at HES. Her name is Sarah Buel. You can Google her yourself.
One more thing: the lack of students at HLS from HES might have more to do with a certain snobbishness at HU in general. For instance, it has been practically impossible to transfer from HES to HC and where it has occurred, they have not offered any credit for classes taken at HES. Don’t take the lack of students at HLS as some prime indicator that HES is inferior. It might have lots more to do with the career aims of the students at HES and where they are in their lives rather than some lack of rigor at HES.
Finally, I was ALMOST a source for the NYT article you mentioned. My EXPOs professor was interviewed for the article and is quoted in the story. His impression of his interaction with the reporter is that she was trying to gather evidence to write a particular kind of article either posing the HES students as fakers or the HC students as overpaying chumps. I wouldn’t rely on the article as a primary source of unbiased information.
In this blog, I’ve tried to answer questions about what HES is and isn’t. I don’t think it’s a good place for young people to try their hand at being independent. The school simply isn’t set up for the kind of environment that most 18 to 22 year olds are looking for in a college experience. There are no dorms, almost no social life, and the vast majority of students are far older than 25 with most hovering around 34. At that age, different things matter.
But I am firmly convinced that if you are looking for an non-traditional experience that is comparable to the traditional college experience, then you really can’t do better than HES. The academics are outstanding and the opportunity to leverage the vast resources of the University to expand academic horizons is a big win. A large population of people like me exist in the world who for one reason or another found themselves in a position where they had to make a difficult choice between finishing school or attending some other obligation or opportunity. Some unlucky few have that choice made for them. What HES represents is a way to strip away the stuff that person doesn’t need from a school and leave what matters most: the education.
It might be true that HES students don’t carry the same prestige with them when compared to HC students. I’m trying to make the case that this isn’t some indicator of the quality of the program. Quite a few HES students have achieved some very notable successes and if the trend toward non-traditional education continues, we can expect more talented and driven people taking advantage of the program and raising the profile of the school even more.
Richard,
I think I agree with virtually everything said in your most recent post. The College (as well as any other top-flight “traditional experience” school) and the Extension School shouldn’t really be compared – they service different students who have different needs and are at different places in their lives. I don’t think anyone is really suggesting that students with options should consider Harvard Extension School alongside acceptances from Dartmouth or Yale.
That said, I’ll take Richard’s word for it that the Extension school is one of the best, if not the best, non-traditional student program in the country. So long as students at HES don’t misrepresent themselves and their affiliation with Harvard, then I don’t think there’s an issue. Unfortunately, it seems like every year, there are those who do, and it gives the rest of the students taking classes there a bad name (and reinforces negative stereotypes to students elsewhere who are otherwise unfamiliar with HES).
[ED: Links to Crimson articles removed]
Aaron,
I removed the links that you put into your post because they aren’t relevant to the topic we are discussing.
You seem to be very concerned that HES students are posing as HC students. I can tell you that I have never considered doing this. In all of my conversations with other HES students, none have ever suggested that they were interested in doing this.
You seem to be trying to imply that HES students are somewhat predisposed to obscuring the origin of their degree at HU. I would counter-argue that HC students make this a problem by needlessly acting as if HES degrees are something to be ashamed of. It’s only natural to try and avoid conflict and since HC alumna are some of the most vocal and dismissive critics of HES students, my inclination is to not fan the flames further.
Virtually all of the Crimson articles about HES written by HC students reflect this negative bias. I’m not going to give them additional exposure here.
My position is that HES students aren’t particularly prone to touting the Harvard brand any more than the HBS Executive Education alumni are. If you’re going to make the case that HES students aren’t worthy of the brand because of supposed lax academic standards, then you have to consider the case of HBS Executive Education which doesn’t even assign grades to the participants but awards them alumni status at the end of their “studies.”
I think you’re caught in the trap that unless a school denies more students than it accepts, it isn’t worthy of any respect. It’s the same logical flaw that leads people to think that expensive designer clothing is “better”, or that music by more famous musicians “sounds better”, or that famous actors in top Hollywood productions are more “skilled thespians.”
I reject those arguments.
The prestige from a course of academic study should flow from the rigor of study and the body of work it represents…nothing more. I’m much less interested in teenage beauty contests than I am in someone’s ability to do great work in the world. HES students deserve to be recognized for the actual quality of their work and some mythical Harvard indicia. I’m at Harvard not because it’s Harvard, but because within the program I found an attention to the things that I find valuable in an education with enough flexibility for me to complete the course of study.
Aaron, try and understand that you don’t have to dismiss or diminish our program in order to feel that yours is valuable. It is possible for two outstanding undergrad programs to exist at the same outstanding University.
I have been reading the blogs with amusement. Guys, your arguments are driving potential HES candidates away. These arguments are diminishing the respect I have [for] Harvard students.
What [makes] them think that just because they study or studied at HC make[s] them different from anyone else? Oh yeah, I forgot, except arrogance and ruthlessness. These made them stand out.
Have you ever thought where those people who were responsible for the recession, earned their education?
One suggestion to Aaron, if you are so obsessed with HC why don’t you just take your course there instead? Why intend to enroll at HES?
Aaron,
Why should you and the other spoiled brats be so concerned if HES students posing as HC students?
HES has been existed for decades, even before we were all born. So what the fuss is this about? Who cares who poses [as] who? After all its the corporate world/companies who will make those distinctions.
I agree completely!
When I read all of the remarks I imagine they are being spoken during an open debate with an active audience. I would be ashamed to be a visitor sitting, listening only to learn later the opposing sides were part of the same family. What does Harvard stand for? There will never be two HC.
I admire Richard’s dedication to HES and his defense against so many that think poorly of HES, but even Richard has just recently seen the light.
Two Great Undergrad Programs inside the same family!!!
There is no illusion regarding the very difficult entrance standards of HC, but that does not diminish the fact that there are so many quality students attending HES!
Try and remember HES students are expected to prove their metal first before being granted entrance into a degreed program! It is all about the education that is being offered.
EVERYONE IS CORRECT in their own views, but it all sounds very foolish to me; I am glad it all seems to be over now.
HES sounds like a wonderful opportunity for me and I want nothing more than to receive the ALB there. For the past week or so I’ve been looking through the HES website and other articles pertaining to the Extension program in order to gain a better perspective. After reading much of your comments and seeing the Harvard ring you recently purchased (which is absolutely splendid) I’ve indeed broadened my understanding of the school as a whole.
Currently I’m in the army and deployed so I know that I can’t take online courses at this time since registration is closed until August and there are no proctors for exams. However, I am planning on taking the upcoming fall and spring courses via distance learning to get a good feel for what HES has to offer.
By the time I finish the spring semester my ETS date to leave the army will come up, wherein my plans to move to Massachusetts in order to take evening classes on-campus will be in effect. With the new GI Bill soon to be commenced all my tuition will be 100% paid for and, after being enrolled as a full-time student, a good lump some of money will be deposited into my account every month to pay for food and lodging. This wonderful opportunity that the VA has granted to veterans give me the upper-hand in being able to attend classes full-time while not having to work or do anything other than study or participate in campus groups and organizations.
With that said I am prompted to ask the question: will the staff and faculty at HES look unkindly upon this great advantage? By this I mean that most of the students at HES are fully employed adults with familial obligations while I would just be a guy whose unemployed and without any dependents. In this sense it’s kind of an unfair measure of my busy schedule compared to the hard-working adults that would be my peers. Don’t get me wrong, though! With this avail I would take every lasting moment to be diligent and strive to exceed the standards in my studies and class participations.
My only fear is that, as a veteran afforded with the convenience of having full tuition assistance and enough pocket money paid to me every month, I would not be the caliber of adult-learner that the faculty would be looking for. Is this true?
Please write back and thanks for all your previous input.
Very Respectfully,
Bill
Bill,
Not a single person at HES will look sideways at you for being a veteran. You can be sure of that. You will find that the administration and the professors by and large are genuinely interested in seeing you succeed.
Quite a few active-duty military and veterans make good use of the program. You will find that the attention to detail that is so carefully cultivated in the military will be a great asset to you. What will be more difficult is working on something where success isn’t always so clearly defined. A lot of classes will be like that.
If you’re nervous about being a student at HES, just make contact with one of the ALB advisers. They are there to help you.
A few questions:
1. Have you taken any college courses before? If you have, you should look into getting those transcripts sent to them. If you haven’t, you should probably go slow for the first semester. Take one or two courses to get a feel for the workload and then ramp up as you see fit.
2. What do you plan on studying? What is your ultimate goal? I found that really thinking hard about WHY I wanted the degree helped me to focus my thoughts on what I needed to accomplish.
3. Do you plan on working while you take the degree? Do you have any expectation on what you might want to do in Boston when you get here?
One more thing: While everyone here will help you to achieve your goals, you should know that you will be expected to shoulder the burden mostly on your own. Professors are helpful but will not cut you too much slack. You will be expected to pick things up quickly and without much hand-holding. After all, it’s still Harvard. It’s not impossible, but it isn’t a cakewalk either. You DO have to do the work.
Thanks for your guidance. You’ve helped me get a better view of HES.
During my time in the army I’ve gained over 60 college credits from various schools and will be receiving my Associates Degree in the Korean language from the Defense Language Institute.
I haven’t quite made up my mind yet on what my major studies will be but it’s a toss between religion, anthropology, or classical civilizations. What I plan on doing is taking the prerequisite Harvard courses that I have to take first and then decide what my focus will be on.
If I can play the cards right I shouldn’t have to maintain a job while attending HES since VA will recognize that I would be a full-time student and get paid every month for food and lodging. I hope there wasn’t a misunderstanding in my wording when I was referring to work. By not having to work I meant “not having a job” while attending HES. Trust me, having the ability to go to Harvard would give me enough drive and discipline to take every difficult and critical task given to me with utmost seriousness and determination. When I was at the Defense Language Institute the workload was overwhelming and the coursework was formidably enduring and rigorous but I made it through the program with a 3.5 average and a high level of proficiency in Korean. When I am to attend HES I will apply the disciplines that got me through DLI in order to succeed there.
Thanks for all your input.
Another thing. You wrote to me: “What will be more difficult is working on something where success isn’t always so clearly defined.” I have an idea about what this means but it’s still a little unclear to me. Perhaps you could elaborate on it a little bit more for me.
Thanks.
Bill,
What I mean by success not being clearly defined was the tendency of professors to be unclear about what they are looking for. It’s frequently the case that they are asking you to make an argument about some topic and they aren’t really able to give you a good idea of how to make that argument a convincing one. That’s what I mean.
For a liberal arts oriented degree, you are probably going to have a good time at HES. I would have been much more reserved if you had your heart set on an engineering or hard science degree.
Hi, I am currently enrolled in the Masters of Management at HES. My experience has been fantastic there. I could see a clear improvement in my skills, not to mention in my salary. As a visiting researcher, I took classes at Harvard and MIT other graduate programs before enrolling at HES, and I noticed little difference in the quality of teaching or amount of work. The real difference is made by the contribution of students to the discussion. The big value of HES is that students are usually working during the day, thus enriching the class discussion with stories from their current experience.
I come from Europe, where I had a successful career as a college professor. I decided to change my career, moved to Cambridge to work, and enrolled at HES to gain advanced management skills.
The courses are very demanding. As I work full-time, I can only take two classes per semester. I highly recommend this program to students who are willing to work extremely hard, have a solid academic background, some work experience, and can dedicate their weekends to study, as there are a lot of papers to write and several projects to do in groups.
The HES website states that there will be new requirements for the Masters of Management admission criteria, as well as new degree requirements, to be released in early June.
Can anyone provide any further indication than the website offers as to what these changes are subject to?
I’m an International planning to attend HES in January by taking 3 pre-requisite courses for Master in Management. Is it true that HES wont issue i-20 anymore for International students, even for the degree candidate after this academic year? So is this means that HES is no longer available for International students?
I’m still doing my undergraduate right now in Missouri and will be graduating in December. I need i-20 for visa to attend HES basically.